sacred buffalo breath
Pennsylvania

Join sacred buffalo breath on tribe.net today!

sacred buffalo breath has invited you to join him at Tribe.net.

SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

topic posted Fri, January 23, 2004 - 12:49 AM by  Unsubscribed
Share/Save/Bookmark
Advertisement
i'm looking for information on SSRI withdrawal syndromes, specifically effexor (venlafaxine). could any of you help me with this? links, names of people doing research in this area, anything would help, thanks!
posted by:
Unsubscribed
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

    Fri, January 23, 2004 - 4:17 AM
    Vivisimo.com is a new clustered search engine you might get good results with. I entered "ssri withdrawal" and it returned 173
    results in 10 categories under "search the web", and 62 results in 10 categories under "PubMed@NIH"
    • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

      Fri, January 23, 2004 - 7:50 AM
      Pubmed is definitely the place to go for any research trials on the subject. On a different note, I take the SSRI Paxil (and have been for the past eight years. I have experienced withdrawal symptoms that were quite severe at times. These included nausea, sensations in my head that others have termed "electrical shocks to the brain", vertigo, nausea, apathy and depression. These can last over a week if Paxil is eliminated "cold turkey."

      I do not know what similarities there are between effexor and paxil regarding withdrawal symptoms. I would be willing to bet however, that because they act on similar NT's and receptor systems that there is some cross-over.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

        Fri, January 23, 2004 - 10:11 AM
        thank you for the pubmed link!

        yes, the effexor withdrawal is quite similar, and starts within hours of missing a dose. in my case, my doctor tapered me down to 37mg then to zero too fast. i got really sick, he is out of town, i'm still sick though getting better, and it's been 18 days since my last dose of effexor. i had to go get vicodin or i would have ended up in emergency care!

        my main questions, if anyone knows, are:

        what causes the brain shivers?
        why is SSRI withdrawal so similar to heroin withdrawal?
        why does it last so much longer than a heroin withdrawal?
        is it true that for some people the withdrawal symptoms never go away?

        again, many thanks!

        p.s. nice pic ellen!
        • m
          m
          offline 16

          Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

          Tue, January 27, 2004 - 2:38 AM
          >my main questions, if anyone knows, are:

          >what causes the brain shivers?

          this has been studied a little, and it's thought to be a form of dizziness caused mainly by visual stimuli (and it's a lot sharper, of course, than normal dizziness). These are supposed to be most marked w/ Effexor w/d.


          >why is SSRI withdrawal so similar to heroin withdrawal?

          serontonin receptors are not the same receptors that heroin targets in the brain (opiod receptors). buuuuut, some studies have shown a potential link between the opioidergic system and SSRIs. yep, many researchers think that the SSRIs aren't as selective in their targets as the pharmaceutical companies advertise.

          it's also interesting to note that some studies have concluded that if you give an SSRI to an hallucinating person, it multiples the "high" that person is experiencing.

          >why does it last so much longer than a heroin withdrawal?

          i have heard anecdotal "evidence" to this effect, but i've never seen any real comparisons. i would think it would depend on how long you've been on heroin or the SSRI.


          >is it true that for some people the withdrawal symptoms never >go away?

          this appears to be the case. the symptoms will mostly go away, but the brain zaps may occasionally pop up.

          note that most, if not all, of the SSRI w/d symptoms are not equivalent to drug addiction (heroin and others) w/d's, but also are very similar to certain types of brain damage symptomologies. isn't that lovely?

          maybe there's a researcher on here who can shed more light on this.

          m
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

            Tue, January 27, 2004 - 11:32 PM
            well, i think it's worth noting that the dsm was rewritten in the early 80's to emphasize drug-seeking behavior as a qualifier for "addiction." to me, they are playing semantics.

            what other kinds of "types of brain damage symptomologies" are ssri withdrawals compared to? if you have links or cited sources that would be great. i'm trying to get ready to go see my psych on friday and as much as i like him, i know i'm in for a battle.

            the vivisimo.com search engine has been a great help, btw!

            and thanks to everyone for all the iinfo!
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

              Wed, January 28, 2004 - 4:56 AM
              Coincidentally, I saw this Op-Ed piece in the LA Times which I'm pasting here in full because they will archive it the next few days, making it inaccessible to non-subscribers or through a link.

              January 25, 2004 Los Angeles Times

              HEALTH
              Truth: a Bitter Pill for Drug Makers

              By Greg Critser, Greg Critser is the author of the forthcoming "One Nation Under Pills" and "Fat Land: How Americans Became the Fattest People in the World," recently out in paperback.

              Next month, an advisory committee of the Food and Drug Administration will meet to discuss what might arguably be the most tendentious issue in modern psycho-pharmacology: the use of antidepressants to treat childhood and teen depression and the drugs' possible role in teen suicide. This comes on the heels of Britain having banned the prescribing of Paxil for children under 18 and advising against most other commonly prescribed antidepressants for that age group.

              But the FDA should really be debating bigger issues, including the role these drugs have come to play in society, and the ways the drug companies have distorted the truth about their products.

              The current crop of antidepressants, mostly selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs, have become, in a sense, cultural products as well as medical products. We have embraced them as a society, yet we are intensely conflicted about them. They are not just pills but stories we tell ourselves about how we should feel and how life should be lived — pills as movies if you will. This may well be the reason we have such mixed feelings about antidepressants: We simply don't know how to assess them objectively, independent from the tales we have told ourselves.

              One reason for that is the speed with which these drugs were launched out of the corporate womb and into the patient population. In the old days, before medicines were marketed directly to consumers, prescription drugs took years to gain a foothold and hence become profitable. Doctors stuck to the tried and true and were slow to embrace new drugs. But after Congress passed a law in the 1980s making generic drugs easier to get, brand-name companies had to become entrepreneurial; they realized they could no longer afford long waits for profitability.

              This change led directly to a whole new marketing strategy at the big pharmaceutical companies: Rather than marketing to the relatively small pool of potential prescribers with psychiatric training, they cast a wider net: focusing on building demand among general practitioners — and later, more directly, among patients themselves. To help general practitioners unfamiliar with antidepressants explain the drugs to their patients, the manufacturers created easily understood stories, maintaining that SSRIs, such as Prozac (made by Lilly), Paxil (GlaxoSmithKline) and Zoloft (Pfizer), were not like the previous generations of psych meds. They were not uppers or downers or tranquilizers that turned patients into zombies but more sophisticated compounds that simply reestablished our "natural" neurotransmitter balance. It was a powerful message to a generation of patients inclined toward the natural.

              The balance story is not exactly a lie, but it's not exactly the truth, either. When pushed, in a lawsuit against his company, Alan Metz, vice president for clinical development at Glaxo, admitted in court papers, "It's not possible really to measure total serotonin." He added that "we do not know with absolute certainty about how any of the antidepressants work." If the drug companies can't really measure what normal serotonin levels are, and they don't know really how the drugs work, then how can we say they restore balance?

              A more accurate version of the message would be this: Varying levels of various neurotransmitters, including serotonin, are associated with varying levels of depression. But that doesn't make as good a story, and so the industry has aggressively and successfully promoted the notion of neuro-balance. SmithKline, before its merger with Glaxo, explained Paxil's effects with animations of a pool table, on which balls ricocheted madly until they were put back in order by Paxil. Pfizer, the largest pharmaceutical company in the world, sponsors "Brain: The World Inside Your Head," a traveling show for science museums in which the company tells children that depression may be caused by, you guessed it, "an imbalance in neurotransmitters."

              So does this mean that the big pharmaceutical companies are evil, as the Church of Scientology and other conspiracy buffs have suggested? Of course not. It simply means that Pfizer, Glaxo, Lilly and the rest are doing what they are supposed to do: make money. If they have gained in recent years far too much cultural power, it is because we have given it to them.

              Are the drugs evil? Again, not at all. They are, at least in the short run, quite valuable, if monitored closely. Even the foremost critic of SSRI overuse, the British specialist David Healy, still prescribes antidepressants other than Paxil to patients.

              The chief myth is that SSRIs — being restorers of "natural" balance — are safer than previous generations of psychiatric meds and, therefore, OK for family doctors to prescribe. They are not necessarily safer, and they should be prescribed only by people trained in their use who will closely monitor patients.

              Closely monitor means weekly follow-ups for the first three months — something almost impossible in the modern managed-care environment where general practitioners average about eight minutes per patient to diagnose and prescribe. Follow-up appointments are tough to get. Yet nearly every study that has found SSRIs safe and effective looked at patients who received intense follow-up care. In the real world, most people who are prescribed SSRIs today are on their own.

              This does not mean that only psychiatrists should prescribe them, but it does mean that any general practitioner who does so needs to have had substantial training in their use and a commitment to providing the necessary follow-up. That would not only make the process safer all around, it would free the general practitioner from simply endorsing a patient's self-diagnosis and request for treatment, which often happens. Better training would also provide doctors with the tools to resist the animated messages of the drug companies about these powerful psychiatric drugs. It also might make them consider providing a more accurate message to their patients, something like this: These drugs will stimulate some parts of your brain and tranquilize others. But you must report to me regularly, which is the only way I can make sure that the side effects don't turn into something harmful.

              Those side effects can be major. Consider Paxil, approved in the early 1990s. Its biggest drawback is that going off the drug suddenly can cause serious withdrawal symptoms (or, as the company's legal staff insists on calling it, "discontinuation syndrome"), including suicidal despair. This was clear as early as 1996, when both the company and the FDA knew that the withdrawal syndrome — flulike symptoms, depression, anxiety and other fun experiences like "brain zaps" (a feeling sort of like an electrical charge in the head) — was, statistically speaking, Paxil's leading problem. Yet the company refused to put withdrawal syndrome on the drug's precautions label until 2001.

              I once asked Jan Leschly, until 2000 the head of SmithKline, Paxil's maker, why that was so. We were sitting in a conference room of a large New York communications agency. Leschly, a charming onetime tennis pro from Denmark, was not surprised at the question. He said all the right things — that the company would never purposely endanger patients, that it would be bad for business as well as morally wrong, and that "we may press [advertising regulations] but we would never, never go beyond it." But why, I asked, when withdrawal syndrome was clearly the leading adverse event reported to both the company and the FDA, did he not put that warning under the precautions section of the label, where general practitioners might comprehend its gravity? Why, in fact, did the company spend millions to justify not doing so? Leschly then made it clear he had had enough of me. "Some people will never have enough information," he said, sticking out his hand for a conclusive handshake. "That's it. I've got an attorney sitting down there waiting to see me. I've got to go."

              The public is still waiting for an answer.
              • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

                Wed, January 28, 2004 - 8:31 AM
                This article is a pretty accurate and balanced summation of many of the most current controversies (many of which seem to involve psychoactive meds.) brewing within the field of abnormal psychology. One issue that has consistently frustrated me as both a student of psychology and a patient who takes these medications is the polar skewing of these issues in this sort of for and against marathon.

                This article sheds light on the real reasons why these issues have polarized people so much. I wholeheartedly agree. Except that,incidentally, I don't think GP's have any place prescribing psychoactive meds.....
                I have yet to hear of a positive experience someone has had in getting these meds. through a general practitioner...
        • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

          Thu, April 22, 2004 - 3:39 AM
          I am unsure how long a SSRI withdrawal lasts, but an acute heroin withdrawal generally lasts 3-7 days, depending on the amount of heroin ingested and the body's ability to metabolize the drug. Withdrawal symptoms from any drug depend on the half life of the drug and the metabolism rate.
      • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

        Wed, January 28, 2004 - 4:56 PM
        i've experienced paxil withdrawal, as well as remeron withdrawal.. the symptoms were quite similar, though i think there was more nausea with remeron, and it lasted longer.

        i don't, however, get a withdrawal syndrome from effexor, which seems a bit odd to me...
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

          Wed, January 28, 2004 - 7:35 PM
          According to a company called NeuroResearch, Paxil is SSRI, Effexor is SNRI and thus act on different categories of neurotransmitters. Which might explain your different experiences.

          Following is from their website - www.neuroreplete.com/depression1.htm

          "Current theory in medicine is, “Depression is caused by low levels of neurotransmitters to include the catecholamines (dopamine and norepinephrine) and/or serotonin in the synapse.” To compensate for these low levels of neurotransmitters in the synapse, physicians treat depression with SSRI medications such as Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, and Celexa, SNRI medications such as Effexor, or Wellbutrin which according to the package insert, “…action is mediated by norandrenergic and and/or dopaminergic mechanisms.”


          MIXED NEUROTRANSMITTER THEORY

          In a group of patients, a mixture of catecholamine and serotonin dysfunction causes depression. On one end of the spectrum are patients with a pure serotonin dysfunction. On the other end of the spectrum are patients with a pure catecholamine dysfunction. In most cases though, there is a mixture of catecholamine and serotonin dysfunction. For the system to operate optimally without symptoms requires that both the catecholamine and serotonin system are functioning properly. "
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

            Wed, January 28, 2004 - 7:59 PM
            So I feel I should add I'm using the amino acid therapy from this company, with positive results. But I'm looking to find other research, other sources of information about this just to doublecheck. Or even if anyone has heard of this before.
          • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

            Thu, January 29, 2004 - 5:08 PM
            but isn't remeron also an SNRI?
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

              Thu, January 29, 2004 - 5:16 PM
              Interesting point. Complex topic. What I don't know is waaay more than what I do know ;)
              • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

                Wed, April 21, 2004 - 11:02 AM
                Effexor is classified as an SNRI. However, depending on the dosage and serum levels, it crosses over and acts not specifically as a noradrenergic reuptake inhibitor, but also as a dopaminergic reuptake inhibitor. And at successively higher doses shows a higher affinity for dopaminergic neurons than noradrenergic neurons. This is a highly complex issue becuase of the biochemical events involved at the synaptic cleft. Due to the presence of monoamine oxidases (earlier form of anti-deperssants MAOIs- monoamine oxidase inhibitors) breaks down the neurotransmitters that have not been removed by reuptake, diffusion, and removed by post-synaptic neurons. With higher doses of venlafaxine, higher levels of dopamine and norepinephrine are released.

                In general, neurons contain more quanta (amount of effect of one vacuole of neurotransmitter's effect on post-synaptic cell) depending on the location. There are more adrenergic neurons located in the autonomic nervous system than dopamine. Whereas, there are more of the other located in the somatic nervous system. While these two systems are not mutually exclusive, at the consciouslevel, they could exert varying effects. Dopamine is taken to be more important in mood control that norepinephrine. Whereas, norepinephrine is more important in homestatic functions of the body. So the dopaminergic neurons would be located at places such as the amygdala, hippocampus, and nucleus accumens. Norepinephrine would be more generalized evenly throughout all the systems.

                Taking into account the affect of the MAOs, noradrenaline is easily released in excess atlow doses of venlafaxine. However a higher doses, their is a common ground where both are about equal and then dopaminergic activity surpasses noradrenergic activity.


                I hoped I explained this clearly.

                -Sweet Wheat
                Psychiatric Medical Student
  • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

    Fri, January 23, 2004 - 11:14 AM
    Hurly: You might want to ask this question on the Depression tribe as well. DepressionTribe.tribe.net
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

      Fri, January 23, 2004 - 11:47 AM
      thanks yes, i've actually probably posted more information there already than i've gotten info from the tribe. i'm looking more for current research and researchers than commiseration! ;-)
      • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

        Mon, February 23, 2004 - 2:27 AM
        Hi Hurly,
        I have been on SSRI's for several years. I was on Paxil at first and it was not the SSRI for me. It made me care about nothing including life. At that time, I also was on 225mg of Effexor (Venlafaxine). I suffered no withdrawal symptoms from either medications. However, I was on an anti-anxiety medication as well, which could have masked the withdrawal symptoms if any.

        I am in Medical school now pursuing psychiatry. There rarely are withdrawal symptoms with SSRI's, but with any psychiatric medication, it should be taperedslowly. And as Venlafaxine is not an scheduled substance and has no street value, your psychiatrist would not believe that you are drug seeking.

        The current research as I know it is that depression often exists as a comorbid condition with other psychiatric illness(es). I am on a current SSRI called lexapro (escitalopram oxalate) which is a atypical SSRI with the prototypical of this being citalopram oxalate. The atypical has no side effects if any due to its Dextro (-R) configuration, and is more succesful at lower doses.

        If you want to talk more privately, we can.

        -Sweet Wheat
        • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

          Sun, February 29, 2004 - 12:20 PM
          This is not correct.

          While SSRI/SNRI withdrawal syndrome is not a common effect, it is certainly not a rare effect.

          There is a significant amount of literature documenting its occurance, though there is little literature that attemps to explain its etiology in detail.

          Depression does often occur comorbidly with other disorders. Most commonly with anxiety disorders, but also chemical dependency, schizophrenia spectrum disorders, and pretty much every thing else. Depression can be the primary or secondary diagnosis, and determining which disorder is the primary is often vital to treatment.
          • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

            Wed, April 21, 2004 - 11:31 AM
            The question posed was SSRI withdrawal syndrome, not SSRI/SNRI. I'll agree the syndrome is not rare, but it is but it is neither common. That is why there is little literature that 'attempts' to explain its etiology and pathology.

            But where did this depression being the primary vs. secondary issue arise? I think you mixed the groups up. I addressed that in Depression and you are trying to say what I did, only badly. Also, I did say depression occurs commonly comorbidly with other conditions particularly those relating to anxiety, shizoAFFECTIVE disorders (schizophrenia spectrum disorders is a sub-category of this), stress, illicit drug use and others. And not to sound sarcastic, but obviously it's vital whether the depression is primary or secondary so that it is treated as such, and hence properly. Otherwise, you would just be pruning branches when you need to get to the root of the problem.

            Depending on the diagnosis (Primary or secondary), you still might have to prune the branches before getting to the roots. This is the physician client relationship which is the basis psychiatry rests.

            As you say, one problem for the depression could be drug use. What if the patient never says that. The most astute physician that has not laid the groundwork would make the incorrect primary dignosis, while the patient tried to deal with the issue on his/her own in secret still relating their feelings and emotions to the physician but leaving certain things out. Continuing with this line of, its obvious detrimental to the well being of the patient in terms of their activities of daily living, the cost on the health care system (yes that includes insurance), lost productivity in the work force, etc.

            And I would say that determining which disorder is the primary IS vital for maximal and effective treatment.

            Not often vital. I would not someone to muck up a primary diagnosis for someone in my family. Would you? ;)

            -Sweet Wheat
            Psychiatric Medical Student
        • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

          Tue, November 8, 2005 - 5:22 AM
          Hello!
          i am very bothered tha tyou woudl actually write

          there rarely are withdrawal symptoms from SSRI's.

          That is nto true. You are quoting literature.... research and manufacturer's literature.

          Read about Paxil and other drugs which have been foudn to be contributing factors for suicide attempts- soem csuccessful- and self-injury.

          I am sorry you got into needing so many of your own drugs to be your brightest self to get into medical school. But please be very careful how you give out information to others.
          These drugs have different affects on different people. Some people are very sensitive to SSRI's and psyco drugs. Their reactions are much different than those 'published' by research and manufacturers' claims.
  • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

    Sun, February 29, 2004 - 1:35 PM
    I scanned the replies and saw nothing from jerod, who runs the site www.crazymeds.org, which discusses much of what you have brought up, and in which all studies are mentioned and linked. He is extraordinarily thorough and about backing up his information, and if you are in a real situation, and there is nothing that addresses it, not only are there references aplenty, but he will also do research for you.

    This is just an FYI. Before I get into this, because I probably have a hundred links and god knows how many journal articles I could use to make various points, I want to make sure you aren't already satisfied, or you couldn't get what you needed from crazymeds, from bipolar forums like that at about.com, from pub-med, from the various elsevier journal search engines, etc. If you are still reaching for more current research and references, I will go ahead and put together whatever research I can - I used to do this a lot, but I exhausted myself a year or two ago. It became too much to deal with my own guine-pig life and read all the current lit - especially once they cracked down and I had to pay for a lot more of it - and write up stuff for people every night. I'm totally biased, but I think crazymeds, for all the unprofessional humor, is one of the best developing patient driven and maintained sites out there; then again, it probably has a lot to do with the fact that Jerod took what I did in a tiny way when we lived together and made it useful and applied his undoubtedly greater intellect to it, and I'm glad. Just needed to reveal the source of the bias. Good luck.


    P.S. - this is highly 'unprofessional' but IMHO, venlafaxine is a dreadful medication, a med of last resort, because the withdrawl syndrom starts for many people within a week and there are people out there still experiencing it after being off the med for more than half a decade. That stuff scares me; it seems very irresponsible to perscribe a med with years worth of side effect report of this level, when there are others available to try first - many many others, SNRI's, combos, all sorts of mix and match can be tried after the single therapy approach has failed before subjecting someone to lifelong EXTRA damage. Isn't the original set of issues enough?

    ....yes, lack of sleep has precipitated this hypomanic wordiness, I apologize...but I wanted to say again that if you still really needed links I will do it. It is just time consuming so I need to be sure, after doing this for a couple years for anyone and everyone, I really got overwhelmed. This is the first offer I've made in more than a year...but it's time to go back because I will be working as a medical researcher 2 days a week starting in a few weeks.

    Anyway, thanks for bearing with my hypomania...I appreciate any patience with it you can muster.

    cari
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

      Sat, March 27, 2004 - 7:58 PM
      as an afterword to this thread - i've been off effexor for almost 3 months now. i still get zaps from time to time, but mostly i feel good. one thing i have noticed is that the repetitive stress injuries i had before i started the effexor, which were one of the reasons my doctor thought it would be good for me as it's supposed to help chronic pain, some of those symptoms have also come back. this could be because i'm more active than i was before, compounded by the time i was withdrawing and did nothing at all - but i think it's more than that. and it's a bit of a drag, sure, but i wouldn't go back on that stuff just to relieve it.

      in any case - thanks to everyone for their input!
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

    Mon, June 7, 2004 - 2:16 AM
    Biopsychiatry.com
    d^Vid
    • Re: SSRI withdrawal syndrome info sought

      Sun, November 6, 2005 - 7:57 AM
      Hello. ive got a situation and im looking for information.
      Im in japan and my shipment of effexor did not come. They dont have effexor here and i usually get it shipped without a problem. Anyway, this month there was a problem.I have been taking effexor at 300mg for the last 5 years.
      I went into severe, abrubpt withdrawl.
      Anyway, after a week, I got on luvox. my only choices were luvox or paxil. They dont even have prozac here.
      At first it made me feel ebtter, but now, every so often, i get spells of delerium, confusion. it serems to hapeen around the 8 hour mark after a dose. I cannot tell if its from the peak of the luvox, or the post-peak drop in my blood or if it is just effexor still.
      My effexor came and I tryed taking a miniscule amount of it (i opened a capsule and started to take out 50 beads, which I imagine is about 20 milligrams), however, the delerium, visual disturbances got worse.
      Psychiatrists in Japan know very little about these medications. Im sort of on my own.
      ANy suggestions

Recent topics in "Neurophysiology and Neurobiology"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
Can anyone here start a discussion on gender dysphoria and ass... Wanderingwolf 3 February 2, 2010
mirror neurons 9 January 13, 2010
does neuroreplete actually work? aliza 30 November 21, 2009
my pet theory Toby 14 October 15, 2009